Re: Is there such a thing as "quality control" when contracting for HVAC preventive maintenance with an outside company?

I've done some digging and I find this comment by Ken is a good one if you are an FM:

"My old company had a team that went around and did spot checks on rooftops. The gave very little notice, and only told techs to have someone available, not which sites they would check. The visit started with checking Make, Model and serial numbers recorded, if that was wrong, the visit would often go downhill from there."

Here's a response I got from someone last week which was interesting - "... He is Jaded alright. However, he has a point with the national/worldwide service account business mentality. Everyone in the chain takes advantage of it...this includes all the way down to the store managers at least to some kickback degree. ...a manager at a XXXXX and I hear all about it. "

So, not only do you have to watch the contractor, you have to watch your own managers. I guess there are problems on both sides...

You have to leave the store managers completely out of the program. They usually do not know anything, and cannot do anything more than sign the paperwork that someone was there. If you allow the store managers to pick the service company, as most restaurant chains seem to do, you run into the use of cousins, kickbacks, and people with no business approving repair work, approving repair work.

I will state again that on average better than 90% of your service companies are good honest hardworking people. Of the larger companies, most are very good, but when they hire techs, it seems that there is always one that takes shortcuts and is lazy, or even dishonest.

I do not think I sound too jaded, many of you have not spent as much time up on rooftops as I have, and have not seen the garbage that I have.

 Pick a location that seems to have nothing but trouble. Pull all the repair and PM invoices. Are they detailed? Do they list tasks performed and the time it took? Do they list part names and numbers? Are they legible? If you can't read it, don't pay it! Pick a couple parts at random and call a supply house in the area, check on the parts prices. Are they in line with what you were charged, and don't forget a reasonable markup was added? 40% seems to be the average? Next, hire a third company from a little distance away, meet them on the roof, and bring your invoice data with you. Is the unit in good shape?

Here are some clues that you may have a problem;

Are only 25% of the panel screws in use? Are the rest laying on the roof, being stepped on and penetrating your roof membrane?

Is there standing water, mold, grass, etc. all around your unit?

Check your model, Serial# and Unit make and size, is it correct?

Are dampers held open or closed with string or bungee cords?

If you have economizers are they working correctly?

Check your filters, are they reasonably clean and do they look like they have been replaced according to schedule? Your filters tell a story, If you replace them per spec's, they usually do not get that bad. if they are very bad, is there an outside reason such as a recent local fire, or are you near a freeway/highway?

Look around for old belts, filters and boxes, is your unit or rooftop a dumping ground?

Have the new company open the unit. Are the parts you have been charged for actually new?

Did you pay OEM prices for aftermarket parts, or used parts?(Can be hard to determine)

How much jury-rigging is going on. Older units may have some, Newer units should not have any.

If you request a spare belt be kept in the unit, or 1 older belt, is it there?

Does it look like the coil was cleaned the last time you were charged for a coil cleaning. If not, is there something causing the timing of your coil washings to be off, such as cleaning the coils just before the cottonwoods release their pollen, Santa Ana winds, or fire season in CA?

Talk to the workers on site, not just the manager. They can give you all kinds of valuable info.

Some of the techs out there will mention that the company you brought will say bad things about the old company to try and take the site, and that has been known to happen, but most of the points above can be determined by an FM by sight, No real skills needed. The tech is really there to open the unit, and help by pointing out some really bad conditions. Ask questions!

TAKE PICTURES, as you may need proof. Trust me, you will need them.

You can see where I am going with this. If everything looks great, and checks out, you are probably dealing with a good company. If you find issues, visit a few other rooftops where that company does work. Check the techs name and see if the same tech does all the unsatisfactory units.

Someone in another post stated another of my favorite old sayings, "Anything you expect you must inspect." Old sayings exist for a reason, there is usually some experience and wisdom behind them.

"You have to leave the store managers completely out of the program. They usually do not know anything, and cannot do anything more than sign the paperwork that someone was there." - I think they can certainly check a dumpster for old filters and question the techs on the status. They should know when water is used to clean coils and it doesn't hurt to see what someone is up to on their roof.

"I do not think I sound too jaded, many of you have not spent as much time up on rooftops as I have, and have not seen the garbage that I have."- I'm not one of those. I even still hold a valid EPA certification so let's discuss this briefly.  Standing water, etc.. is more likely a poor roofing installation than anything to do with the service company of the equipment. And, before you conclude screws missing is strictly the contractor (or the current contractor) please reflect on the lack of any quality to the purchased equipment. I know with some brands this was an ongoing battle of poor design. Before you assume missing screws are on the roof ask about stripped out screws, etc... Put a policy in place with the contractor whereby he can re-tap (IF) or use other means to secure bad panels. Probably this doesn't come for free as it is a REPAIR.

And, again I'll state your are trying to peg this 40% as a flat markup. Many contractors have a sliding scale markup. To think 40% is some magic number is not a good idea in my book. I had a markup range starting at 5%. Maybe I should have been happy to get your expected 40% on everything?

"jury-rigging"? Sounds like a bad idea at any time. Potential huge liability issues. Fix the problems or replace the equipment. Safeties should not be "jury rigged". Natural gas systems should not be "jury-rigged".

However, if you want to analyze data- get on the roof in advance and take down model/SN, belt and filters. Then have the perspective contractor do the same. Initially there you can determine how thorough they are. Why would you leave it up to the contractor to ID your equipment?

And, I've said it before but decide on a decent control system that even measures things like run times and status so you can see during the PM how long the individual units are down. Don't concentrate on the duration(s) exactly as many things are checked running- but if you want to know if belts and filters are done a report from your BAS after the PM can go a long way to tell you things. Further, have a repair? Again, probably there is some OFF time you can see.

I got this from someone I respect in the contracting industry:

"...You hit the nail on the head with this guy! We have had big box contracts over the years and they beat you to death every year when it comes time to re-negotiate the next year’s budget.  One example that comes to mind.... Every year that it came time to re-up the contract we were being asked to reduce the labor cost and parts mark up.  Our contract agreement provided 100% of the back up of cost.  It was an “open book” contract.  Majority of your smaller shops could not even handle the administrative side of performing an “open book” yearly contract agreement as it is a paper work nightmare.

 We protested the reduced rates that were requested by the client for some years and they went ahead and stayed with us.  We did not raise the contract amount many years even though the inflation rate was increasing.  Then the client had the bright idea to negotiate that we send service technicians that were no advanced than a XX year apprentice at a negotiated lower rate.  Well of course they held the level of service standards to the same criteria hence we were providing less performance and incurring so called warranty on XXXX.  Shame on us for even allowing that to happen.

 In the long run we decided to sever the relationship and not renew with them.

 This backs up your opinion that they are going with second rate shops that need to be micro managed.  This environment creates a huge distrust between client and contractor that in the end cost everyone more money.

 If I was on the client side of this situation I would make a comprehensive spread sheet that quantified my cost per square foot in all areas of operating cost.  Then I would tabulate the data and compare each site to each site to find non pattern like instances that may be saving money or spending money.  To micro manage every single service ticket that rolls through the inbox of accounts payable is not realistic. (maybe for the first quarter but that is it.  If you have to keep doing this after the first quarter time to find a new contractor!)

This guy is very narrow minded in his thinking and although he has learned some great lessons in the contract procurement arena, he has not applied them very well.  My thoughts with him are that he was getting a cut of the savings.  This cannot be allowed as it creates issues of ethics and client contractor relationship."

There seems to be a lot of real good suggestions going back and forth on this one. As a chief engineer of just one site I can't even imagine the nightmare of trying to manage maintenence contracts on properties where it is unlikely that someone physically checks after the contractor. That is just foriegn to me.

There must be a viable way to hold someone accountable to their work be it spreadsheets, controls systems, checking the dumpster, etc.... but nothing is going to beat and educated customer with a good relationship with his contractor.

If it is true that big box retailers are constantly letting low cost drive the decisions on contracts and they don't have a good way of follow up then there will always be abuse. It would be interesting to hear from FM's that don't have the issue of abuse and see what they may be doing differently. I can imagine the big difference will be in the relationship that company has with the contractor and the level of accountability that is built into the contract.

Good contractors are good for a reason and it usually isn't because they have the lowest upfront cost.

My suggestion to big box guys would be to maybe create a position or positions for field guys that can develop and manage these maintenance contracts. Field guys who will be knowledgeable and work with local contractors to develop realistic schemes with incentive programs attached. But the field guys need to be just that Field guys, up on the roof with the contractors managing the process.

You can be both firm and fair.

Here's some more feedback....

"Just tell that Xxxx this-The most common and easy trick is as simple as shutting off a  disconnect...making a phone call...have the remote monitoring service check it out..they see its offline and are blind. Call in the local service....Then make up any story you want on the repair..a few mocked invoices for shelf parts and you just made a easy take.

This takes this from a elaborate conspiracy down to a two man operation. Someone with a roof key, and the local service provider. or possibly right down to the Tech level...depending on how Brave he was with the "repair paperwork trail"

Its common."

Well, certainly seems the "quality" control has as much to do with BOTH sides. So much for calling out the contractors only. Seems like both sides of the business can be dirty.

The NFMT session on this topic in Baltimore went very well.  I hope it helped those that attended.

There were a couple of additional points I wish we had time to discuss related to finding a quality contractor.  Since there was only a limited amount of time, I will mention a few here for anyone that may be interested.

One indicator that came to my attention recently is the contractor's warranty policy.  There is at least one very large service contractor that only offers a 90 day warranty on parts and labor.  The standard has always been 1 year.  There are two problems with this policy.  First, if the contractor does not have enough faith in his technician's abilities to stand behind their workmanship for at least one year do you want them working on your equipment?  Why should you be expected to cover the additional 9 months?

Second, almost every replacement part is warranted by the manufacturer for at least one year.  Some large circuit boards are warranted for 3 years or  more.  If the contractor does not have to pay for a replacement part that fails in the period between 90 days and one year, you shouldn't either.  In those very rare occasions where the manufacturer only stands behind the part for 90 days, it is fair for the contractor to only cover the labor for 90 days as well.

You may also try to find a contractor that shops for prices on repair parts.   If you have a long term relationship with a contractor, this is not too much to ask for.  For contracts that are bid annually and awarded on rates only, this might be too much to expect because the lower the part price, the less the contractor makes.  For instance, a 10 horsepower blower motor bought from a HVAC manufacturer may cost the contractor $1,305.00.  A quality Baldor motor from an independent motor supplier cost $661.00.  If you have an contracted percentage markup on parts you can see where the contractor would make hundreds of dollars more on the factory motor.  If there is no reason for him to believe that keeping your cost down will reward him with a long term relationship, there is no incentive from a business perspective for him to keep your maintenance cost  down.

If you have a national account with a particular HVAC manufacturer, ask about their national account policy on parts discounts.  Their national account pricing often beats the local supply house pricing.  Keep in mind that shipping cost should be added to the comparison as well as the need to get the part quickly.

Make sure the contractor's bid includes all miscellaneous charges that will be billed such as travel and miscellaneous parts.  If the bid includes a flat $35.00 for miscellaneous parts on each call, consider that as part of their first cost.  $35.00 buys a lot of wire nuts.  Most calls require only a few dollars of miscellaneous parts if any at all.

I think you need to examine further this warranty issue. Typically when buying most replacement parts on old equipment nobody warranties general parts at the supply house. You will have some difficulty returning anything even DOA that you purchase from a supply house. So, 90 days is fair enough time to realize your replacement blower motor was fine and installed correctly.

You state: First, if the contractor does not have enough faith in his technician's abilities to stand behind their workmanship for at least one year do you want them working on your equipment?  Why should you be expected to cover the additional 9 months?

You are expecting one year. Your assumption is based on nothing.  If the manufacturer or supply house doesn't give you that you don't have it on the parts. Period. And, if an electrical part fails again within a year, to make an assumption the technician is at fault is ludicrous. It could be anything from a fault in a winding on a motor to bad internal connections. Possibly a brown out or spike for the power company. To immediately conclude it must be the technician is extremely poor reasoning.

Major items such as compressors and heat exchangers will carry a warranty and with that you should expect more than 90 days. Possibly larger HP motors would have longer warranty, but even this is probably something the service company provides and not the supply house. Don't expect more than 90 days on all other electrical components such as contactors, CFM's, ID motors, etc...

Regarding replacing an OEM motor with another - my answer these days is good luck. Maybe 20 years ago your point here had much more merit. Take a look at some manufacturers who now do not include any definitive HP data, odd rpm, and have custom frames. Two manufacturers in particular I can think of are masters at this. So, you are expecting the service company to work around these issues from faulty reasoning. My answer to you is investigate better what you purchased for equipment if you really want to avoid issues on replacement parts. Another issue with this is insurance. Let's say there is a fire for whatever reason. I can guarantee you if investigators look at the equipment as a possible source and somebody figures out something is not OEM they will immediately refuse any liability.

And, regarding direct purchased parts from the owner that you want a contractor to install - I would turn this down most every time. The reason was that you wanted the contractor to be completely responsible for that part. Certainly I wouldn't provide any warranty on parts sourced by another. It rightly shouldn't be in my overhead. So, if a owner sourced part failed you expected the contractor to put in another replacement in at no cost. Sorry, we are just the labor on that so you need to pay. That is rightly the owners risk.

It certainly seems to me you FM's have your hands full with some contractors out there. However, it also seems to be you made some of your own bed with unrealistic and not well thought out expectations.

Darly:

I am a contractor, not an FM.  My suppliers warranty their parts for one year, and if it fails before that it's covered.  The only exceptions are where the part has been mishandled or improperly installed and rightly so.

There are indeed some manufacturers that use odd motor sizes and frames and in many cases you have to go to them for replacements when alternatives cannot be found.   This may be intentional but if it is something you come across frequently you can sometimes find an option that works properly.

A national accounts parts discount is available to the contractor purchasing parts for that customer.  Having the customer purchase the parts or having them billed to the customer would be wrong and risky for a number of reasons.

One year from the supplier is a very nice situation. I know of a national supplier that does this... but also typically their pricing is higher.

It helps if you rarely ever return a part under warranty.  When it happens frequently with only one contractor having trouble with a particular part, the supplier should start to question the contractors ability.

Have a nice weekend.

Both the good contractor and the bad contractor do not want to redo repairs.
When something is broke they both want to fix it to not have a hassle. NOBODY wants to go back.
There is no money in going back.

Here's some differences:

The bad contractor typically doesn't have the better techs or office people. Good people don't want to work for them.
The bad contractor manufactures false problems.
The bad contractor is cheap.... especially when "fixing" fake problems.

The good contractor typically has better qualified techs.
The good contractor reasonably stands behind his work.
The good contractor doesn't provide outrageously low rates or charges for parts.(he is almost never the least expensive)
The good contractor resists the FM telling him he needs to send less experienced people at lower rates (union rules,etc..).
The good contractor avoids bad warranty situations.
The good contractor knows how to say no to a bad deal (if even eventually).
The good contractor knows you, knows your equipment and is willing to meet you onsite to discuss issues if you let him.
The good contractor isn't going to deal long with an ill equipped, unreasonable FM. They don't have time for that.


So, if you are a good, reasonable, knowledgable FM probably you have less issues. Visit your contractors and talk to a few of their people and this gives you the best indication.

And, you are not going to get something for nothing. Or, you won't get something for nothing for long.

You bring up another point- about the supply house selling to anyone. This is a whole other issue. We only dealt with Supply houses that did not sell to non-contractors. So, that national chain with the one year warranty was off our list if we could avoid it.

Judy,

Accountability is your best answer, have contractors take pictures of the numbered equipment and fill out detailed preventitive maintenance check list that includes the model and serial number of equipment. Never hire a contractor that pays service people commision instead of fair market hourly wage for well trained people.

HVAC Service Consultant

Harry,

You now have made the main focus of the tech to fill out a list and take a picture. This is a complete waste of time more properly spent on checking the equipment. Especially since the customer doesn't want to pay for that.

Meet with the contractor in advance, examine the equipment types and agree on what goals are necessary.

"Accountability is your best answer" -- OK. Agreed. This means the FM needs to be accountable, and the managers. The big box installation group needs to install equipment that can be monitored, and not let their GC's get the cheapest installers.... This whole thread is about going after the effect rather than the cause.

Further, I still would think maintenance on 20-40 super-cheap packaged rooftop units is more expensive for maintenance than a 100% redundant central system. Less cost on control installation, less parts, less cheap equipment, easier to manage. I can remember a KMart that had one larger system.... The fan system never was down and the larger condensing units were always redundant enough the building maintained cooling even with the occasional breakdown. This system was about 30 years older than the newer "rooftop installs". I contrast that with the other Kmart's that had multiple (cheap) rooftops where constantly there were repairs. Plus, they had all of the extra electrical runs on installation, multiple roof penetration issues, etc... That industry needs a re-think on their installation practices.

Judy,

   If your willing to think outside the box when it comes to preventative maintenance on your HVAC system, then I would like to share with you a proactive coating system that can be applied to the inside of your air make-up handlers.

There are many benifits to this system. If your interested, I"ll tell you more via email.

zapponeg@yahoo.com