Re: Poll: Lighting Retrofits

Lighting

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Poll: Lighting Retrofits

Answered (Not Verified) This question has suggested answer(s)

Please take a second and reply to this poll:

What type of lighting retrofit have you undertaken at your facility?

  • Lighting controls (19%)
  • Compact fluorescent lamp upgrades (33.3%)
  • Conversion to LEDs (23.8%)
  • Daylighting (4.8%)
  • Other (reply to this post explaining your retrofit) (19%)
You voted for 'Conversion to LEDs'.
  • Total Votes: 21
  • Voting Ended: 20 Jul 2010
All Replies
  • Awesome that everyone's looking at saving energy via improved lighting!  But please remember that improved lighting means nothing if the surfaces within a given room are light absorbing, rather than reflective!  A  reflective flooring can really reduce the lumens needed for any area.  Check out this photo gallery to see what I mean:   http://www.florock.net/gallery.htm  These folks are great to work with -- very experienced and very very customer-oriented:  www.florock.net.  Good luck with your projects!

    1-800-FLO-ROCK (356-7625)

  • Great suggestion and input - you are absolutely right.

  • Mike,

    Edovel is simply misinformed. I have been installing UL listed LED retrofit tubes for over a year now. There are several manufactures I represent that are classified under UL category: Luminarie Conversions, Retrofit (See: UL Online Certifications Directory: http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/cgifind.new/LISEXT/1FRAME/srchres.html - Search #E329228) and I can send you others.

    One of my best performing UL classified LED tubes has LM-79 verified specifications (please email me for a copy) of 1,240 lumens (85.3 lm/W) with a 14.7 Watt rating and a 72.7 CRI. The perceived brightness (Photopic Lumens) is almost identical to a 34 Watt, 4200K T8 fluorescent tube. While most people seem to prefer the cooler 5000K (daylight) color temperature, we have been getting excellent results from our blended True Cool White tube at 4400K.

    At Light Fair International in Las Vegas last week, we introduced 3 new LED retrofit tubes. Two of them produce 98.4 lm/W (14.8W = 1,375 lm and 18.8W = 1,745 lm respectively) and a high-efficiency tube at 105 lm/W tube at 2,265 lm. All of these tubes produce a CRI of >80.

    Our high performance LED tubes utilize an aluminum back (heat sink) and have an internal smart driver that will work with either 110V or 277V fixtures and have several color options. Additionally, these tube types run about 20 degrees cooler than their fluorescent counterpart which can reduce ambient room temperature up to 2º.

    Most of the high quality manufacturers have shifted away from the older 5mm LEDs to SMD technology, as they provide a much higher Lumen/Watt output ratio and a more consistent color quality. Many of the general service LED tubes I offer are now less than $65 and I have some that can be controlled with a “Dimmable” external driver.

    If anyone is interested, please send me an email (info@LUX-Star.com) and I would be glad to provide you with additional information. My manufactures also offer a 3-4 year warranty on their products and a luminary maintenance expectation (of 70%) to last for 50,000 hours. I know of no factory replacement warranty given to fluorescent tubes or ballasts.

    As for the USDOE being hesitant towards embracing LED technology, it may be as much from the influence directed by the legacy lighting industry lobbyists in D.C. as it is from science. The report I link to here from the DOE does not paint a very flattering picture of LED T8 replacement tubes. However, I am always quite skeptical of any report (Government or otherwise) that “averages” test data from undisclosed manufactures. Furthermore, none of the tubes they tested in this report were stated as having UL certification, and I would welcome them to test mine.

    http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/t8_replacement-lamps.pdf

    There is a lot of questionable product out there, but that should not diminish the few quality LED tubes that are available. In my opinion, the DOE should concentrate more on safety and let Consumer Reports determine levels of quality and performance. So far I have received no complaints.

    Suggested by
  • Stan,

    I can assure you that your "year" of experience would certainly allow you to call me misinformed.  I have been doing this for 15 years and by the way, your supposed test of a 34 watt, T8, I would like to see that because they do not exist, but someone with over a "year" of experience might not know that.  When a retrofit is approved by UL, it comes with a specific set of instructions for the retrofit.  What I am saying is that ALL of the components must maintain the UL or the entire system is no longer UL.  As a result of the socket manufacturer's testing, they have determined, at this time, that the socket WILL NOT be warrantied when a LED tube is used in a T8 socket.  It has not been tested that way.  Why don't you ask your UL rep if this is the case, I did at Lightfair in a public forum and they confirmed, when one of the components in the retrofit fails to perform or is asked to perform outside of it's spec, the system is not UL.  Good luck going back to explain to your customers if something unfortunate happens.  As far as testing, lets trust the LED manufacturer's to perform their owntesting, they have done such a great job so far.  We all know that the spec sheets put out, match the actual performance.  In fact, with independent testing over the last 10 sessions of CALiPER, only 3 products have shown actual versus reported are correct.  3 of over 60 products, WOW, lets use the manufacturer's marketing, they are not trying to MISINFORM anyone.  Keep in mind, that I just want the truth for my customer's, not hype.  I don't misinform anyone, ever, because I have been in this business long enough to know that when you sell someone a bunch of junk, you won't get a chance to fix it.  However, I will, so I thank you.

  • References to DOE CALiPER testing must take into consideration that DOE is well behind this curve.  Their Energy Star program will not consider the new retrofit tubes above 4100K.  Go figure out that one.  They also want 2800 lumen for a 4-foot tube with all this light directed at 120 degree beam angle downward.  I did not see one commercially-available tube that puts out anything close, and for good reason.

    They must have tested a lot of early, cheap product.  Not sure we can expedite (because we're asking them to look at lumen degradation on a 50,000 hour rated life - which means the point at which lumen output has dropped to 70%), but we need to keep pressure on DOE to continue testing.  Either that or turn in over to Consumer Reports.

    Energy-efficiency is driving facility retrofits.  With these extended lamp lives, I'm recommending products that will still be getting better in 5 years.

  • Thought I would mention The Sign Syndicate is doing their own testing measuring power consumption, light measurements, initial cost and ROI of retrofitting interior overhead T12 fluorescent fixtures to T8, and LED Retrofit kits.  This is a non-biased study/test for the industry

    http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4226-project-facilities-public-thread/

    This test is ongoing and will be updated regularly

     

     

    We have done similar tests with electric signs that have been running upcoming 2 years

    TheSignSyndicate.com


  • We are in the testing stages of the transition from T-12,8 and CFLs to LEDs. The results have been amazing to date. Reduced heat load on the facility, 70% reduction in energy consumption, no maintenance cost for the past 2 years.

  • That's interesting because we're using probably thee best/brightest LED kit that's comparable to fluorescent lamps in our testing and we don't get anywhere near 70% in energy reduction.  As for heat, there is plenty of that too.

     

    You shouldn't be having any maintenance in any of those lamps if properly installed in the last 2 years.

     

    Maybe you have a link to exactly what you're testing?

    TheSignSyndicate.com


  • My company recently retrofitted a classroom in Southern California with UL Classified T8 LED lamps in the 5500K spectrum. After the installation, we observed a striking difference compared to the standard T12 4100K fluorescents they replaced without any noticeable reduction in luminance.

    The tubes we installed have a CRI of 72.7, they produce 1237 lumens at 14.7 Watts and are equipped with an internal driver so they operate without a ballast.

    With the District's approval, we are running this experimental side-by-side with an identical classroom equipped with existing fluorescents.

    This three month study will not only measure the energy savings of the LEDs (we're expecting around 55%), but also the reduction of heat in the classroom (each LED tube runs 20 degrees cooler). During this test we will also be rotating students and teachers between classrooms to get their empirical feedback.

    So far the reactions to the LEDs has been favorable. The students say that their papers look whiter under the LED light and the text is easier for them to read. Teachers have also reported that the annoying ballast hum and flickering light they had been putting up with under the fluorescent tubes in the past has totally disappeared.

  • Hi Stan,

     

    What has been the reaction to using T8's on an electronic?  There is a noticeable difference in lighting and energy compared to T12s.  For a 2 - 4' lamp sstem you are going from 84 to 57 watts.  What is your power consumption on the LEDs?

     

    Also, what brand LED lamps are you using?

     

    The T12's in the classroom, were they on a magnetic or electronic system?

     

    Years back I was very impressed with the results of the GE products for a large retrofit job we did for PETCO stores

    GE Ecolux 4100K 32 watt lamps
    Ballast Make/Model: Ultra Max T8

    TheSignSyndicate.com


  • We have had hundreds of customers around the world successfully retrofit fluorescent systems to our LED kits.  Companies have included some of the largest names in the world including the largest milk producing company - Fonterra.  We have had hospitals and schools in California and Alaska have great results.

    What we have found is that in the USA the old 4X T12 lamp was "the norm".  People thought they would reduce to 2X T8 lamps - well that doesnt meet a lot of building luminance standards around the world.  In New Zealand and Australia for example a typical 1200mmx600mm (4ft by 2ft) fixture typically uses 3X T8 tubes. 

    Our system is designed to be comparable output to a 3X T8 system - our product is higher output than a 2X T8 system.  So when people are using a 3X T8 system on either magnetic or electronic ballast they are seeing power levels in the 110-115 watt range. Our parts are running around 48-50 Watts.  We even have data from the New Zealand Navy and one of the largest remote power metering companies in the world that our products are saving about 55-60% energy over a 3X T8 system.

    In class rooms I would think that 2X T8 will have some parents eventually complaining about low light levels.

    We will be introducing a new product on 1.1.11 that will really put an end to the Light Wars....

    After surveying the world in places that ranged from Fiji, Norway, USA, Panama, South Africa, New Zealand, and Canada - we have determined what the world wants in a system and how to give it to them.

    1. They want a system that is as bright or brighter than fluorescent

    2. They want a system that does not hum or flicker

    3. They want a system that reduces maintenance but is easily serviceable when it is time to maintain.

    4. They want to reduce power bills.

    5. They want to project a "greener" and cleaner approach in their buildings to reduce waste

    6. They want options of colors - women want warmer, Asian countries want cooler, most Europeans have proven Daylight 5000 Kelvin is best, and then some places want intensely cool 7000-8000 kelvin parts.

    7. People want systems that could react to and adjust dynamically to daylight levels without expensive controls and without lights jumping on and off.

    8. People want something that pays for itself under 1 year in today's volatile economy.

    So we surveyed the battle field and well....we decided the Light Wars are over.... stay tuned for 1.1.11.

    Visit us anytime and watch the videos of what people are doing with our products on our Las Vegas USA website at www.AxiomLED.com or our New Zealand site at www.KiwiLED.com or our Pacific Island site at www.AoturoaLED.co.nz ...and soon in Norway at www.NorskLED.com and in Panama.

  • And I forgot to mention some residential/commercial retrofits we also just introduced.

    • LED Downlight for residential/commercial
    • LED PAR Lamp for residential/commercial/hospitals
    • LED PAR Grow Lamp for all those states that have passed the profitable medical law for a certain plant sale.
    • Amber Sea Turtle Safe Lights for Florida, India, Tahiti, Hawaii, Costa Rica

    See them all - http://store.axiomled.com/category_s/29.htm 

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